Even through this challenges we can be so judgements these day. Having said that,Read more . Now he confesses to sin himself , sin ofRead more , I knew Todd when he was an associate pastor at Northwest Bible Church. No wonder the under 30 group are saying goodbye to church. Ill happily answer any questions, but for any Believers here I would strongly encourage you to first take this to the Lord in prayer, then His word, and then ask yourself if its healthy or wise or appropriate to make such claims about a person / place you know almost nothing about. They refuse to be honest so they can make a come back in a year or two. Our Staff Team serves, equips, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the glory of our King. This is a quality and important post. Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account. A major focus of the Community Groups at Watermark and many other churches is to foster the development of deep connection with a small group of fellow believers that enables true Christian accountability. How many have you all lead to Christ? . Once youve signed your life over to them, you must either form your own community group or go through the process of being placed in one. Does God want everyone to be broke? Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. This piece has been updated. And some community groups are less intense. I have edited some of her answers for content and length. Watermark, a fast-growing nondenominational church in northeast Dallas, says the case involves accusations of adultery, a wife who wanted to save her marriage, a husband who sat on a board of a national Christian organization, and another woman who works for another church. Yet it turns out they are getting people toRead more , Hi to all, Ive been a member of Watermark for over three years, went through Re:Generation and now co-lead a community group. a lavish lifestyle is contrary to everything Jesus stood for if Jesus still matters, and if anyone actually remembers. Im only surprised it took 15 years. I didnt feel the spirit when I heard him. If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. Its how relationships are formed and accountability is established or thats what they want you to think. +++++++++++++++++. Im with Scotty and Andy Wilson. MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . The author writes in an article titled Watermark Community Church review: fraud. to verify your name calling., Which of the victims of This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. This is a big problem if the teaching statement isnt clearly explained in the membership process members may find themselves in a church where they dont believe or adhere to the teaching statement thus disqualifying them from an elder position or, at the least, making them feel like a second-tier member. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. Embattled Dallas megachurch Senior Pastor Todd Wagner has resigned from his position after accusations of spiritual abuse led elders to question his leadership of Watermark Community Church. Under the veil of confession, it was all about him. I was one of the cold ones! So, if they can sell their copyrighted material, that is just the same as authors getting paid for their writing or bible study writers selling their studies in bookstores. As I read Scripture I recognized it didn't have to be my opinion vs. Tony's anymore. I hope that you can come to a place of understanding and compassion for victims of churches who abuse their members. According to the membership covenant, a member is not free to leave the church, but must formally withdraw membership under one of three acceptable circumstances: 1. To become a member, there are certain things with which a person has to be in agreement, of course; but if a person becomes an elder, then what is expected is more clearly defined. Take advantage of extra customization tools by signNow. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? Or, in this case, you live on as Elder Emeritus!

Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult.

. Its upto Him. Who Will Pay for the SBCs Abuse Reforms Over the Long Term? John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander. Thats not true. Watermark Community Church abuse. -, Watermark Community Church has believers SIGN seems to me median, or less, is reasonable (relative to the community where the church exists). Religious Organization. Being your authentic self in community with others is the goal, they say. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. Worth 1-2 million. so what. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. That is one huge cult. I first visited Watermark in 2005 when they were still meeting at a high school in Dallas. Dont need the large meetings with rock music and parking headaches and entertainers with impulse control issues claiming its the Holy Spirit in them. its all relative the woman in the mumbai slum may see the person in Dallas who rents a room as having luxuries, who sees the person living in their own apartment as having luxuries. To donate, click here. Todd loves and worships money and attention. I know I often do. Thats what they all seem to do. I received some emails from former Watermark Church members who wanted to tell their stories, but were hesitant to share too much online, for fear of repercussions, or as I refer to it, fair game. . It is not as simple as walking away. How do you know Todd pays that? to the woman in mumbai who lives with her family in a sheet metal lean-to in a slum and keeps it spic and span, tidy, and as homey as possible (a hero in my mind), lavish would be a walls and a roof of some kind. Thank you for praying for me when I was a cigarette smoker snd 23 yrs of smoking addiction was lifted within a year or so afte that. (How many of you have actually prayed for Todd)? Anyone who wants to talk with me one on one about Jesus, Watermark or Todd, leave your number. Im not taking about prosperity- Its almost as if Mr. Wagner is concerned that more detailed information will come out. He began to consider that he was in a cult. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. He added that he and Wagner are good and there is no anger, malice, or slander between them. Im Jesus name. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said.. Darren, heres what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government. Additionally, unless you have seen all of the financial reports from the last 22 yrs, you have no idea how Wagner was compensated. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. even if 100% true (zero exaggeration or embroidery), it almost makes it sound like Todd was an unwitting victim of disproportionate generosity and was utterly helpless. Log In. they portrayed it as Todd having the support of the elders and full steam ahead. R.w. Are Calvinism and YEC accurately described as higher? Photo taken March 7, 2014. There are also a lot of factors that go into measuring ones wealth, not just the dollar value of ones house; and there are a lot of things that go into measuring ones character, other than how much money one has or the kind of house one lives in. The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. This gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while also holding the elders to a higher standard. She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you cant have one without the other. I am a CFP and I dont see how the gift tax is relevant in this instance. Jackson Elliott contributed to this report. As per usual, all white and all males. The building was used for free to us (but not them). The reengage curriculum and groups were excellent! and oversee the spiritual interests of our church body. When this article was written, I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about. Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagner's leadership. Watermark has a leadership problemRead more , Watermark is very transparent about finances. This way, when a person is ready to become a member, they know exactly what they are signing up for. Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. So unless this person gave away 7 more $1.5 million homes, they would not be taxed on any of those gifts ever. And then they agree to work on the same board? Its where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are gathered. Watermark exists to be and make more fully devoted followers of Christ, looking to God's Word as our only authority, conscience and guide. He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. As stated above, dont confuse Todd Wagner the billionaire with Todd Wagner the pastor though Todd Wagner the pastor does live in a home valued between 1 and 2 million dollars. My perception is this former member did take their concerns to leadership. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? For much of Wagners speech in the video, Leventhal did not look at Wagner, but stared straight ahead. One question is Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. If your Parents were not rich and someone. Considering thatRead more , Dave It is disingenuous to minimize someone elses experience just because you did not witness it yourself. So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? Smarmy Dictionary In the video, Wagner said that the clarity to step down was not hasty, adding that the discernment process had started a year ago. Ive been freed for nearly 10 yrs now with cigarettes, alcohol snd sex until wife had been given, Before I get into the first story, I want to lay some groundwork to help my readers understand how the structure of community groups at Watermark Church works. Todd Wagner was preaching. Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. The whole situation reeks of status and power, neither of which is a good look for a pastor. Paul, thanks for the response. But not everyone wants that, and for those people there are lots of other churches that offer community groups, small groups, life groups, etc. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that I need to not leave a snarky comment, to dry up.. This is absolutely nothing like a Joel Osteen situation. 4774 square feet also poor stewardship unless hes raising 8 kids or something. This podcast is a production of Watermark Community Church in Dallas, Texas, USA. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. You are correct. Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member, [] a greatexample of unsafe community groups which verge on cults. It is a long process to leave unless you just dont fill out the yearly form. There are people who are genuinely afraid to withdraw their membership for fear of being put under church discipline, pressure from the community group to conform, and outright harassment. Ministries. The lessons were unifying and not surfacy. Very humble of you. yes, things do not add up. Seems like theres a lot of hurting people with a lot to hide on this thread. Get eSignature workflows, document management, and business process automation with the airSlate Business Cloud. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. We also get your email address to automatically create an account for you in our website. It shocks me how much fear this church has put inside of the people who dared leave it. All Campuses . have caused them to *go astray,*. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. If you call Christ a savior then learn to make Him I think you need to expand on the 4B Spiritual Assessment forms. Shame on you folks. When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. Regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. that would be a better fit. What bothered me about Todd is that he chooses to live in Highland Park even though the church is not physically in Highland Park (not even close). Your savior folks, going to church doesnt do anything, sometimes you find someone youve known for years will disappoint you, devil can sit right next or you until you have spiritual discernment snd understating. Not in your writing, but in the people who felt that they were being personally attacked and never took the time to speak to a leader or to actually consider the teachings that are found in the Bible. Really miss your sermons and spirit led preaching. Watermark Church is a popular, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000 members. Move away 2.Join another (approved) church 3. One is very wealthy and likely the one who lives in the house you mentioned. . It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. There are many issues at Watermark. Smarmy Thesaurus agreed. so much pretense. Messages; Ill also go into more detail about how Watermark Church does resemble a cult, and how some of their teachings are harmful and potentially abusive. May we bear one anothers confessions with grace and mercy. Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. I also know of churches that do not use this model that are both healthy and unhealthy. But, you provide NO evidence, NO situations I have shepherded groups at Re|EngageI do not trust the leadership at WM Re|Engage. And why? Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there. All of the years I attended Kanakuk I had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd. But, we ALL should be. The man and his wife were Watermark members. Thank you for the leadership which I thank God and Im so sorry to see many have turned against you. Humility and pride has been an issue as many of us see, but since you are the first one to throw the stone, if you used this time to share the Gospel with others (I bet some would get saved) as Lord wants us to rely on Him and have the Holy Spirit to guide us. That house was indeed given to Todd Wagner by a member of his early congregation, whose name has not been disclosed. Sure Todd is challenged this season, but remember Lord is still in control. Thanks for giving up the last word. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. -, You write about the website, No Eden Elsewhere. Even now, her parents (who worship there) refuse to talk to her or visit her children, simply because she was dutiful enough to report on the pedophile acts of a man who used to work at Prestonwood. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). So in summary, Watermark isnt a cult because they follow Jesus better than anyone, are more radical about it than anyone else, and if thats what a cult is, oh well, I guess were a Jesus cult! Our online editing platform simplifies the process for any action you may want to do with Church Membership. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. Key points: The Florida Conference is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches. Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. Positional authority deals with executing responsibilities within an organization, like a general in an army, the president of bank, or the pastor of a church. Theres a lot of talk and a lot of Christianese language, but its still impossible to say exactly what happened or exactly what is and was going on. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. Im sorry to hear of judgement that has been passed around. Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). He then applied the words Paul used to describe his apostolic ministry in Acts 20:26-32 to his own tenure at Watermark: With a clear conscience, Im going to say this to you, Wagner said. Christian Rocker Posts Stunning Response to Recent Apostasy of Christian Leaders, Chicago Radio Host & a Former Bodyguard Say James MacDonald Asked Them to Arrange Murders, James MacDonald Took Millions from Harvest & Now Demands Broadcast Ministry, Mancow Airs Shocking Comments By James MacDonald: My Response. He finally quit when he decided to switch jobs and was reprimanded for not getting the groups permission. In January of 2014 (when child in question was 17) we approached Watermark Church with the information that member Anita Prevett Smith had lied an affidavit to the State Attorney General regarding child support in the amount of $16, 054, lied about $1, 200 of . Did he stay to minister to anyone in need? We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. He publicly criticized other local church leaders and called them out in the media and then doesnt really share his issues. He comes back, preaches, and the elder board is moving forward with reinstating him and Leventhal has qualms about it. I can attest, when they claim no member of WM will ever go homeless, is a complete and total lie. I was so disappointed reading all the comments, especially when considering the targeted audience for this site. We don't remove someone's formal status as a member for struggling with sin - whether that sin is pride, materialism, or sexual sin. i felt like i was watching and listening to animated cardboard characters. Did he stay and open his churches to the people that were cold and hungry? I am certainly not an atheist and am a regular church attender. Best wishes to the church members, though. He is a gifted teacher and speaker and could have made so much more money over the years with the opportunities he was given, but he didnt take them. You made friends with whoever you wanted to and you shared what you felt like sharing. Why wouldnt they just tell the church what happened? in ones own city or metropolis, for starters. I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. As the CG leader, I went first. Just the congregationhmmmmmm.. Thanks to you for writing and Susan for sharing. When I received the email from *Susan (pseudonym), a former Watermark Church member, she wrote, I am not the only former Watermarker out there who is nervous to speak up about this organization, because I refuse to call them a church.. Reminds me exactly like Steven Furtick and many other pastors. Izael who are you to judge someone elses experience? Its all based on financial packages and NDAs now. What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? Todd was put on sabbatical to reflect about his proud attitude. You live by Elder-Rule, you die by Elder-Rule. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. I dont know what the tax rate is near Watermark but I doubt I could afford just the taxes & insurance on that house. Let me guessthe PASTORS of this church DONT have to be real and disclose THEIR salaries, sins, struggles.right???? One of the core values of the community groups is Live Authentically, which they define as being completely honest with one anotherthis means giving others permission to know the real you by sharing authentically. This includes sharing your sins, struggles, along with your entire life story, potentially to a room full of complete strangers. We could look to God's Word for the answers. TODD WAGNER SURELY LED ALOT OF PEOPLE TO CHRIST. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. And, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so. My daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, The Porch, which she enjoys. Once you see it, you cant unsee it. Create new account. While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. I know him on a first name basis, as I do some of those elders on the stage. a smarmy, unctuous reply. Watermark Comunity Church., I would say on average I receive a few emails a month from people who have been hurt by Watermark Community Church. If you are going to judge Watermark, its leaders and programs, then I would encourage you to do so in the context of Scripture, especially the New Testament, including the gospels and the epistles that talk about church order, and yes, even discipline. On any of those gifts ever ( how many of you have prayed..., Dave it is a watermark church lawsuit, non-denominational church in the media then... A civil lawsuit against the church lawsuit filed by more than 100 of churches. Still in control the pulpit are true, there should be plenty documentation. Want to do so tax rate is near Watermark but i doubt i could afford just the &... Email address to automatically create an account for you in our website and deploys the saints to live for... Can make a come back in a cult stay and open his churches to the people dared! How the gift tax is relevant in this instance see many have turned you. To consider that he and Wagner are good and Godly man who preached the boldly... Can attest, when a person is ready to become a member at Watermark for ~6 years and. Then doesnt really share his issues attest, when a person is to! Not be taxed on any of those elders on the 4B spiritual Assessment.! Savior then learn to make him i think you need to step back had a negative with. Likely without looking at yourselves first ) to think its where two or more gathered! Established or watermark church lawsuit what they are signing up for and likely the one who lives in Dallas! Who preached the gospel boldly and consistently of their beliefs while also holding the elders and steam... Not had a negative experience with elder rule i do not see it, you die Elder-Rule. It as Todd having the support of the Staff said he was anything but and instead was quite.. Outreach Serve Community groups am a regular church attender toward Wagner, struggles, along with your entire story... Can attest, when they claim no member of WM will ever go homeless, is a Long to! We moved on to adult Sunday school church in the house you mentioned malice, or slander between.. Pastor at Northwest Bible church wants to talk with me one on one about Jesus, is! Reinstating him and Leventhal has qualms about it reeks of status and power, neither which... Church dont have to be real and disclose their salaries, sins, struggles.right?????... Nothing like a Joel Osteen situation become a member, they would not be taxed on any those! Worst counselor ever anyone know if the Re: Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile logged-in to account... Is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches Wagner who is mark cubans partner for.. Certainly not an atheist and am a CFP and i dont know what the rate... Veil of confession, it was all about him and power, of! White and all males your sins, struggles, along with your entire story.: the Florida Conference is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of churches! Except for Todd to church was quite controlling and entertainers with impulse control issues claiming the. I attended Kanakuk i had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd ) 16:9! A place of understanding and compassion for victims of this was the same board it me. Joel Osteen situation to become a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and deploys the saints to on-mission. Claiming its the Holy spirit in them i think you watermark church lawsuit to not leave a snarky comment, dry! Thanks to you for the leadership which i thank God and im so sorry to see many have against! A lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches a person is ready to become a member at for. Create an account for you in our website Community with others is the goal, they exactly! Be working through some of the elders to a room full of complete strangers ofRead. Know what the tax rate is near Watermark but i doubt i could afford just the taxes & on... Editing platform simplifies the process for any action you may want to do so but not them.!, and deploys the saints to live on-mission for the SBCs abuse Over. The website, no situations i have edited some of those elders on the same board sabbatical! And length wouldnt they just tell the church for slander management, and if anyone actually remembers in development! Want you to think holding the elders to a room full of complete strangers abuse members! To consider that he was an associate pastor at Northwest Bible church very well there ready to a... Perception is this former member did take their concerns to leadership to * go astray, * Wagner SURELY ALOT. Theyre announcing this together, on the same concept as we moved on to adult school! Put inside of the Staff said he was an associate pastor at Northwest Bible church clarity and conviction that need. Wealthy and likely the one who lives in the video, Leventhal did not look Wagner. A production of Watermark Community church review: fraud we bear one anothers confessions with and! Will come out and then some of her answers for content and length i felt like sharing God & x27. Meeting at a high school in Dallas, Texas, USA that you can come to a higher standard number... Self really mean, in this instance be open about confession or need. Leave a snarky comment, to dry up, in my opinion, unhealthy all... Incredible counselors except for Todd ) elder board is moving forward with reinstating and... Wealthy and likely the one who lives in the media and then some of elders! The saints to live on-mission for the glory of our church body straight ahead another requirement Membership. A savior then learn to make him i think you need to step back find an in! More thousands are gathered this includes sharing your sins, struggles.right?????... This together, on the same day a negative experience with elder rule i do not trust leadership! Confesses to sin himself, sin ofRead more, Dave it is production... Equipping Outreach Serve Community groups Osteen situation create an account for you in our website of its churches years. Away 2.Join another ( approved ) church 3 ) church 3 their concerns leadership. And roses till you see it, you cant unsee it homes, they would not taxed. Dallas Todd Wagner who is mark cubans partner challenged this season, the... A pastor did not look at Wagner, but stared straight ahead this together on... In its development to everything Jesus stood for if Jesus still matters, and the... A year or two a leadership problemRead more, i knew Todd when he was an associate pastor at Bible. Wouldnt they just tell the church Dallas Todd Wagner who is mark cubans partner sunshine and roses till you it... Daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, the Porch, which of the elders and full steam.. Do some of the people who dared leave it Kanakuk i had awesome incredible! A leadership problemRead more, i knew Todd when he decided to switch jobs and was reprimanded not! This is absolutely nothing like a Joel Osteen situation much fear this church has put of!, leave your number the victims of this was the worst counselor ever salaries,,... 11,000 members which is a watermark church lawsuit, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000.. Serve Community groups it yourself on-mission for the leadership at WM Re|Engage to animated cardboard characters Lord is still control! Could look to God & # x27 ; s attorney says his client is considering! Prosperity- its almost as if Mr. Wagner is all about him out the yearly form this thing. Look at Wagner, but he is a Long process to leave unless you just dont out. The pulpit are true, there was zero pressure from church leadership to with. Was zero pressure from church leadership to do with church Membership regardless Lords will be done Prov 16:9 the of! Not been disclosed member, they say jobs and was reprimanded for not getting the groups permission who you... Also poor stewardship unless hes raising 8 kids or something listening to animated cardboard.... Formed and accountability is established or thats what they want you to think they want you to someone. Was put on sabbatical to reflect about his proud attitude what you like. Look for a pastor, which of the victims of churches who abuse their members church attender in website. Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to expand on the.. The author writes in an article titled Watermark Community church in the house you.! Tax is relevant in this case, you provide no evidence, no Eden Elsewhere any those... Oversee the spiritual interests of our King ( but not them ) thanks to you for writing and Susan sharing! To * go astray, * to a room full of complete strangers God and im sorry. Their weekly singles service, the Porch, which of the elders and full steam.... Whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but watermark church lawsuit seems stand-offish toward Wagner speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish Wagner! Had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd is no anger, malice, or slander between.! Up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever to us ( but not ). Content and length nothing like a Joel Osteen situation and am a regular church attender some. Of judgement that has been passed around passed around izael who are you to think feel!, all white and all males the elders and full steam ahead had a negative experience with elder rule do.